In Conversation with Teah Lewis
In this week’s episode of the Comics Youth x Where are the Girlbands Safe Spaces Podcast Ella and Eve chat to the wonderful @teah_lewis - a Sheffield-based musician and the founder of @boxiesheffield - an organisation which creates events that promote and develop artists of marginalised genders. We talk all about the business side of gigging and how Teah’s day job and training within business gives her an insight into how we can create a safer, more inclusive music scene for everyone.
Hello and welcome to the Comics Youth x Where are the Girlbands Safe Spaces podcast, a space for discussions with organisations and individuals who are creating safe spaces within the North West, with a focus on Merseyside.
I’m here with Eve who is the other half of Where are the Girlbands and we also have a very exciting guest in Teah Lewis, also known as Boxie. Teah is a musician based in Sheffield who both creates her own music and promotes the music of others through her organisation Boxie. Boxie aims to address the issues of inequality and a lack of safety in the Sheffield music scene. Alongside this Teah also works around funding making Teah a very exciting person to chat to today as she has an acute awareness of different scenes from multiple perspectives. We have had multiple really interesting conversations with Teah before as two organisations with a kind of similar aims across different music scenes that are quite geographically close in location which is interesting.
Interview with Teah Lewis:
Ella:
How are you today?
Teah:
I’m really good are you guys?
Ella:
Yeah, very excited.
Eve:
Yeah good thank you.
Teah:
Good!
Ella:
Okay, well I guess the place me and Eve always like to get started is with the origin story. So I guess what’s your origin story with Boxie?
Teah:
So I’ve been gigging and performing and doing all sorts of stuff in Sheffield since you know 2016/2017 and it just got to a stage where I just realised you know I’m not being given the same platform as other people in my music and just being a big part of the music scene and going to events I realised there’s not representation on the stage, there’s not representation in the line-ups. So you know I just felt like I wanted the gigs I was going to and I just realised you know I can go to three gigs in a week and there’ll be nine bands on and there’s no female/non-binary artists there. There’s just not! And that just didn’t seem right considering I was you know fostering a community and meeting lots of other female artists as I navigated that music scene so I just thought I want to create a space where I’m specifically platforming those people because I think a really important thing is that to get opportunities you need an opportunity to start with and because I felt like I couldn’t get my foot in the door, I wasn’t being given that opportunity, no one was specifically giving it to me I felt like I wasn’t moving forward and I just wanted to make sure that wasn’t happening for other artists as well. So with another musician who goes under Hallworth music, her name is Hannah Lloyd, we decided to set up Boxie together and start putting on events to specifically platform and provide a space for people to hone their craft.
Eve:
It’s amazingly similar to yeah just some of the thoughts and the things that we’ve seen which is a reminder that that kind of thing really does, it’s a universal thing almost. And, sort of, does, in general, what’s the Sheffield music scene like? Is there a particularly heavy music scene because I know that there are sort of a lot of famous artists from Sheffield that you might be aware of. Because you think of Liverpool and you think well the Beatles and their legacy have left a lot of space for music but I’ve never sort of encountered Sheffield so yeah what’s that like?
Teah:
Yeah well so obviously we’ve had some big acts come out of Sheffield over the years. In like the 80s it was very much electro-pop like human league and that sort of stuff and then erm obviously the Arctic Monkeys came out who were just massive and there’s still really quite a heavy presence of bands like that so it was Tramlines this week and it was bands like Sheafs, bands like The Sherlocks, The Reytons, still very much like quite guitar based, you know, all boys, lots of attitude based kind of all that sort of thing. Like that’s still very present in the music scene and actually there’s just, there’s just so much live music in Sheffield but it is, it is becoming more and more diverse. There is some really really good independent venues in Sheffield who push genres and put on lots of diverse ranges of music erm as well as quite a strong open mic, acoustic, singer-songwriter scene. So there’s lots of different aspects of it. We also have a really big community of kind of like Ska bands like K.O.G. and Captain Avery and the Cosmic Triceratops, I can’t even remember the full name of it (laughing) but there’s all these kind of really eclectic fun events that happen as well erm kind of yeah like Ska music and stuff. So yeah it is really diverse but like in terms of bigger venues, we kind of lack, we’ve got like Sheffield Arena where do get people come, but there’s not those mid-size venues which give emerging artists a chance to really support those acts so where, we do have an O2 Academy but it’s not really that big, the Lead Mill has as well historically been a great venue but just in the last five, six, seven years I’ve been in Sheffield it hasn’t been as active, so, it’s like it really varies but yeah I find the music scene for me as an emerging artist has been a bit complacent in the last few years just because we have so much live music, it’s so saturated, and so much of it is free! So there’s no culture of like artists get paid, erm, there’s not a real culture of artists really being looked after, it’s more like you’re doing us a favour by doing live music in our venue and we’re not going to charge tickets because we want people to come and spend money on our bar, and that for me is a little bit tricky to navigate.
Ella:
Yeah it’s interesting that because it’s like weirdly the accessibility of free tickets also makes the performance side like less accessible? You know because maybe on a financial level it means more people can go to gigs but it puts a financial cap on the people who can perform and dedicate themselves to regularly performing in those venues if there’s no sort of financial compensation.
Teah:
I think we do need to consider that there needs to be a range of things available for people. And certainly a lot of events that I’ve done in recent years and a lot of events that venues do do is having like a tiered ticket system where we’ve got either a pay what you feel system or a sort of unwaged or waged or a pay what you can system, and that in DIY venues is quite widely used but yeah you’re right it’s like, it becomes a bit of a tricky balance for emerging artists to, who do need to be compensated in some way, you know even if it’s not in money, it needs to be, there needs to be some kind of exchange there. And yeah it just makes it, it makes it more difficult to access and it makes it quite difficult to promote events because it’s quite difficult to convince the audience to pay because I think it’s really important to pay artists if you’re putting on an event and you’re getting a benefit from it. It should be fairly distributed amongst performers and staff and organisers, even if that’s proportional it needs to be distributed amongst that whole team of people. Erm and sometimes I feel like it isn’t. And then with being a female in that space, where most of the other people that you’re working with tend to be men, it’s more difficult to have those conversations and to kind of ask for that so that’s another factor of why it is important to reflect on whether that’s right or not and have a stance on it so you can support people to have those conversations and make sure they’re not being taken advantage of I suppose.
Ella:
Yeah definitely I think that’s so important for like people starting out their journey as musicians you know? I think from our perspective you know it’s very similar on the Liverpool music scene, although I will say I don’t think we have that many actually free music events like most of the events I’ve been to in Liverpool have had like a fiver tickets, like in most venues I’d say or you know a bit less a bit more. Erm but yeah it’s a similar sort of culture of yeah raising conversations around finances is quite difficult and it’s not really something that as a musician you feel equipped to do. If you’re told by a promoter arrr you need to sell this many tickets and then you’ll get this percentage back, or it’s all very vague and in loose terms and you find out after you’ve performed how much money you’ve received and stuff like that, if any at all, it’s all a very hush hush thing. I think you’re right, if you’re someone who feels uncomfortable in gig spaces to begin with it’s sort of an extra hurdle to raise that conversation around erm am I getting paid, if you’re uncomfortable. I know we’ve had experiences of erm like promoters or the people sort of like sound techs and that talking to you in quite a patronising way or these microaggressions of like not offering you a sound check or things like that. If that’s how you’ve started the gig then asking how am I getting paid is a really difficult step to take. So yeah I think as a more established musician or someone who works in events setting that precedent of like no you should be getting paid like and having those conversations and inviting people into them is a really important thing to do.
Teah:
Yeah and it’s not even just money it’s also about like an exchange of skills and an exchange of opportunities because I think if we keep it in the culture of promoter is doing the artist a favour rather than the other way around which I feel like a lot of the time it actually is, that’s not very good. If the artists and the promoters are on a more equal footing like that will create kind of a safer space for everyone I think. So it’s just creating that culture of it being a supportive environment as well you know there are so many gigs where you’ll turn up and the promoter like doesn’t really talk to you like they’re busy sorting out the event and you’re sort of a commodity in a way to them whereas I put on an event recently with Boxie and I tried really hard to make sure that as a promoter I was offering more than just a paid gig slot because I got funded to put on an event by a venue and I just wanted to turn it into more of a supportive environment. You know not every promoter is going to have time or capacity to commit to that which is fine, but just to make sure people feel welcome when they arrive, to make sure they know where everything is, you know a drink and you know check if they’ve got any access needs you know that should just be part of the life and the role of a promoter in my eyes I think it really should be because that will make it much more accessible for people to go into those spaces. And you know it’s so much fun to be able to go back into live music you know I’ve been at Tramlines this weekend and I know that you guys have been starting your events and it just feels so good to be back out and about and watching music again and performing as well, it’s the best feeling ever, so we just want to make sure that everyone’s enjoying that and I know we’ve spoken a lot about that in the past.
Eve:
Definitely! And I think it’s such an important part of fostering a community is making sure that everyone’s needs are met. I’d love to talk a bit more about that is the fact that yeah we have had a break from the live music scene and I think upon coming back it really needs to be driven home the ideas of catering to your community especially as accessibility needs will have changed after the pandemic, people will have concerns about coming back into a live music space. So I don’t know what you make of that about yeah like making live music spaces as accessible as possible especially like in a post-pandemic sort of situation.
Teah:
Yeah I think, I think one thing we have to remember is you know people aren’t used to being in a room with so many other people and it’s just like that, that kind of anxiety of being in a space where you’re exposed to loads of people that you don’t know when you have been in, ell hopefully most people have been in a space safe relatively considering that they may have been at home or they might have had a lot of choice about where they’ve been and who they’ve been with. And that’s not to say that they’re safe in that environment but you know generally. And yeah so you’re exposed to all these people so it’s about the venues helping people remember how to be respectful and you know really holding people to those standards you know if people are getting too close when someone is clearly like you know I want to still keep my distance. You know it’s about making sure that you’re kind of consenting to having a conversation. I mean I’ve been out recently and you know been at an event and there’s a man speaking to me and instead of just having a conversation it’s like there has to be you know physical touch you know he has to have a hand on my arm and things and I’m just saying please don’t. It’s really important that there’s someone there observing that and making sure that like if someone’s clearly uncomfortable that someone steps in. And it’s getting home safely, I think is so important. Like one of the big things that I wanted to do, so I did this artists development live gig the other week and I thought it was so important like I need to know that these artists are getting home safely because we are right slap bang in the middle of Sheffield city centre and you know it’s not really safe to walk around, also you’ve got equipment with you so you’re quite conspicuous. If you’re walking down the street with a guitar on your back then you’re much more conspicuous you know and so I just thought I think that’s really important because you know Tramlines was absolutely crazy, getting home from Tramlines was really hard. That was one thing I found really difficult about that event. It was really well organised in so many ways – the line-up was diverse, there was loads of security around, loads of facilities, loads of access facilities as well but the infrastructure to get home! Like we were stood on the streets for hours trying to get a taxi, for hours trying to get home and it’s a really really long walk because it’s out of town and I just thought if I was on my own right now then I wouldn’t be safe and I’m an artist you know I wasn’t a festival goer so imagine all of these young women who are all trying to get home, might even be intoxicated and all these sort of things so that’s another really important things that venues provide the infrastructure to get people home safely whether you’re a performer or just attending an event.
Ella:
I think even just the information around attending an event and how to get home. And I think something we’ve heard recently is things like having hotlines available. So if you have like a burner phone or something available if they’re like on their way to or from venue and just having that like constant dialogue with people at your event rather than just you know putting the show on and it’s peoples responsibility to get there, leave, whatever and you don’t have to have that constant contact or they’re meant to do all the googling and the research themselves. And it goes into that whole thing of transparency generally as like an events organiser or a venue, you know really providing all of the information people need because if you’ve got those policies in place but no one knows about them, they’re not going to know who to ask for or like if they can phone or all these kind of things that you really need to signpost those things I think.
Teah:
Totally and that’s not like a hard thing to do, it’s just like those extra little things to do that provide a safer environment. You know even like with Tramlines I don’t even know like who to say it to because I don’t want it to come from a negative place because it really was such a good event in so many ways I just thought actually that’s just not good enough and it’s for everyone really when something isn’t good enough you know I think that’s a really important element to make sure it isn’t just coming from our organisations or whatever. You know we can be a voice and an advocate and stuff but just any member of the community can say when something seems off and seems not right. I think the more than we do that the more that we hold venues and other organisations accountable really.
Ella:
Yeah, definitely. 100%. And for venues to encourage that discourse would be really important like you know saying, maybe even having an email or something available where people can offer feedback and that sort of thing because you’re right, it’s all well and good for organisations focussed on safety and access and stuff to be like this isn’t good enough etc. etc. but we’re not aware of everyone’s experiences do you know what I mean. Every individual who goes to a gig has different access needs you know has all of these intersecting identities and stuff which play into people’s experiences so like you say it’s really important that that conversation is open to members of the public as well as like you know people doing training or organisations like ours.
And also I thought it was interesting about what you were saying about how you should be able to raise that as something to be improved without necessarily sort of critiquing or speaking about Tramlines in a negative way because I think for us that’s something that’s really important at the moment. Feeling like you can offer people like critique or advice and that that’s with an aim of supporting the venue or event. That’s not coming from a place of like oh this isn’t good enough like no one should interact with this venue any more blah blah blah blah. The venues themselves should encourage that sort of critique and offers of things they should change rather than seeing it as them being shut down or you know having bad press surround them perhaps.
Teah:
Yeah exactly! Exactly. You don’t want it to be a case of just like leaving a negative comment you know in response to something and everyone just sort of like attacks that; but this was great, but this was great, but this was great. But it’s actually you know I’m not negating any of that I’m not saying any of that wasn’t the case but also we need to make sure this is in place. And also just making sure that venues provide that space to give that honest feedback without, you know it’s not a complaints section it’s feedback.
Ella:
Yeah, I feel like that’s exactly it. It’s feedback it’s not like critique or a hate comment. It’s like no I really appreciate your services, but here’s ways you could make it even better and make sure that you’re filling all the gaps, especially for venues that maybe promote themselves as safe spaces or maybe have a specific role in the community, maybe if they’re a very diverse venue or something like that. I think it can feel quite hard to approach that kind of conversation and be like mmm I know you’re doing these sort of things but actually it’s not quite there yet, you know there are still things you need to address. So that’s like really refreshing and helpful to hear because I know it’s something that me and Eve sort of tread a line with sometimes in terms of not wanting other venues who are doing good work to feel like we’re critiquing them or it’s like well I’m already doing all these things and it’s like yeah we really appreciate that and value all those things and like you said it doesn’t negate all of the fantastic stuff but here is some extra stuff and keeping that discourse open and never thinking you are a safe or accessible space like knowing that you probably do have things need to be fixed. Even if you’ve got policies in place you should always be open to change and adjust those policies.
Eve:
Well and you never stop learning do you because even at our like launch event there was some people who spoke on perspectives that I couldn’t relate to. Like people having epilepsy and an issue with lights and stuff like that you just may have never thought about stuff like that even. So I think listening is a really key thing. I think, so what’s it been like sort of the relationship of setting up Boxie with another person, what’s your sort of working relationship like and how does that impact the work you do with collaboration and stuff like that?
Teah:
So at the moment I run Boxie independently. So what happened was that after about six months of setting Boxie up the other founder actually moved to London but before that it was just difficult to work together I guess because we both had slight inexperience so it was difficult to follow processes and difficult to know you know who was doing that and I think just with other commitments at the time we just never knuckled down on it and I think both of us interestingly now we both really work within the events and we’re both really active musicians. So I think if we came to it now we would have a totally different relationship because we’ve both had that time working full time and we’ve both had time having more under our belt.
But in terms of how I work with other organisers I work really closely with a venue in Sheffield called DINA and when I was in university I approached them to do an event off of one of my university modules like an open mic night based off of Latin American music and stuff like that. I just immediately met these really supportive, invested, excited you know members of the artistic community in Sheffield who just wanted to you know give me that space and I started working for them and ever since I’ve been closely collaborating with them and they’ve been commissioning events and it’s really important to have people on your side who have more experience than you and have that bit of infrastructure and they’ve had arts council funding and they’ve had the cultural relief fund or whatever it was called so they’ve got a little bit of a pot there to give to organisations like me and other events producers and anyone whose thinking about setting up an organisation you know the more connections you can get like that the better. And it’s not always easy to come by but it really does just come from reaching out like don’t ask don’t get sort of thing.
Ella:
Yeah. Definitely. I feel like we really relate to that like as well because like we have a similar origin story to you of being well I feel like I feel like the scene or the side of the music scene I want to exist in doesn’t exist, so I guess I’ll make it myself / like do a lot of digging basically find the people who do exist in that sub-section of the music scene and it’s why organisations like yours are so helpful because it points you in the direction of those sort of different spaces or people working in the music scene who are interested in offering those sort of events.
Teah:
Yeah definitely. It’s amazing there’s even more popping up in Sheffield. There’s a new one which is being set up by the singer of Sophie and the Giants who are a really great up and coming like Sheffield band, they’re doing really really well. And she and another person are setting that up and you know a lot of these spaces are also like Queer spaces and stuff which is also really important. And yeah just to see other organisations doing it and even we’re dealing with slightly different genres and slightly different groups of people or whatever. But yeah like you say the more networks, and that’s why Instagram is so good because you can really observe these networks and figure out what they’re doing even from a distance for a while and just see where you fit into that and I think I didn’t really have that when I started out. I mean I didn’t even have Instagram but I think it wasn’t as kind of used for that as it is now, because Instagram has really become a place where we have those important conversations. You know pages like yours and the sort of content that you provide which has just got so much information, and I don’t know whether I just wasn’t in the conversation before but Instagram for me before was much less education and much less community focussed than it is now, and I feel like you can just learn and connect so much more than you could before.
Ella:
Definitely. And you said something earlier about how it just sort of snowballs almost like once you start looking for things you find them and I feel like it’s the same for Instagram. And I feel like just going to different organisations who have similar aims to you and collaborating rather than seeing it as a competitive field I guess and it’s just like even though there are organisations with similar aims it’s still like we deal with slightly different things and there are more than enough things to be done and addressed and stuff like that so, seeing other organisations pop up it’s just like the more, the better the conversations become, like the more people get involved in conversations the more you feel connected to your scene and other scenes as well. And I know like even for us the conversations that we’ve had have in a sense of although we’re in different scenes and they’re both quite grassroots and insular in a way in terms of you know you have like your very specific Sheffield institutions and venues and stuff like that and it’s the same in Liverpool but how the conversations cross over and can like influence and offer like support for each other in sharing our research is really interesting because yeah although as a musician I might not go to the venues that you’re talking about, I can still learn from the way those venues operate or the way those line-ups operate and how the musicians are marketing themselves or talking about themselves and yeah it’s fantastic and we’ve definitely felt that over the past couple of years how as those conversations have started they’ve just kept growing or expanding with people joining in or just starting their own sort of conversations which you know link into yours and all of that sort of stuff, it's very exciting.
Eve:
I think as well, even at a grassroots level like it is an industry, like the gig industry like venues are ultimately just doing what they can to make money and the same with bands and artists and everything and we’ve actually spoken in the past about valuing your time as a creative because what Ella and I do is still on a volunteer level and I think yeah while doing all the important work that you do, it’s also important to invest in yourself. And I think perhaps why all of this important work isn’t being done is because just people are focussing on what’s making money especially after the pandemic when a lot of smaller venues have lost out on a lot of money. So I just wanted to get your perspective on that about like investing in yourself because it does impact on like longer-term change.
Teah:
So yeah what you’re saying about venues needing to make money. So I had a conversation with a promoter recently who just on the Sheffield Live Music Facebook group had promoted that, well had asked you know if anyone wanted to play so I messaged asking what it was going to be about and whatever and it sort of transpired it was really a kind of pay to play sort of situation. They were going to pay me, you know, a small fee, probably half of what I usually would expect, but because we are just emerging from a pandemic I thought well I need the opportunity and also I'll just do it because it's not going to be expensive for me to go to that venue and whatever, but you know, ideally it would be more. Anyway this was just before the kind of rule was changed so maybe kind of earlier May time when we weren’t sure when things were opening, so the next I heard from that promoter was that well because we can now have half capacity we’re not going to be able to pay you at all. And I just thought well hang on a second, I was like do you mind if I call you can we just have a conversation about that to see kind of why that is, and it just kind of transpired well actually we need to pay the venue and the sound tech and there’s not going to be much money left, and because you’re not going to bring that many people we’re not going to give you a fee and I just thought that makes no sense on so many levels because on a business level you know as a venue or as a gig promoter and stuff you shouldn’t be committing to putting on an event where you can’t pay for the cost of it, like that’s not how business works, so, if your venue is more expensive than you can possibly make by selling tickets to people then you just shouldn’t use that venue. You just blanket shouldn’t do it and it needs to be that everyone in the room is being paid. You can’t turn around to your security or your bar staff and say well there’s not going to be enough people coming so we can’t pay you. Like that’s not lawful you can’t do that so why can you do that with musicians?
Ella:
So trueeee.
Teah:
I know! It’s just like and it doesn’t make any sense. Those musicians are just like as skilled and whatever as all of the other members of staff in the room so it’s about going into, or getting yourself in the headspace of being like I am worth that. But also being like, so, investing in yourself like you’re saying is so difficult because you can do that in so many different ways, and people have different values and different opinions and so you know sometimes people think investing in themselves is to do with money and making sure that you know you are giving yourself opportunities where you are being paid like for your value, or it could just be a choice of what your prioritising. So I chose to go down to four days at work for a while, I took the pay cut so I could spend a day a week doing this, and invest that time in something that I’m really passionate about because it’s not what I’m doing as a career and eventually it might be what I’m doing for a career but I can’t do that unless I invest that time. And actually those three months that I was off allowed me to get funding for Boxie and stuff but then I couldn’t afford to do it financially. So I suppose it’s just about finding a balance between you know following your passions and investing in your music and sort of believing that you’re worth that but you know doing that within the parameters of survival, budget and all these things which are really important as well.
Ella:
That’s something we’ve come up against this year in terms of like things which are maybe financially rewarding are maybe not the best things to invest in like where you want to go like with like the career. And say for us maybe there’s an event we could do and perhaps this would springboard us because this is like a known business or going to get us more people involved but really it doesn’t line up with the ethos of our page, and actually like investing in things like more charitable venues that don’t have a big budget sometimes is a better investment in terms of allowing us to explore things that we want to explore and push for like more alternative things which rings true to what you were saying in terms of like taking a pay cut to make sure that you have the time to develop your creative practice and Boxie and all of these different things. So it is definitely a balancing act of weighing up like I do need to get paid and these are opportunities that make a lot of sense financially and in a business-y career-based way, but like really this opportunity which isn’t paid or is going to sacrifice a financial element, it’s unpaid, but actually it’s going to allow me to express myself creatively and push boundaries and form networks and ties in the community and it’s about weighing those things up.
Teah:
And it is about deciding where those lines are for you personally because it’s not fair to turn around and say to other musicians well you shouldn’t be paying for free, because it means all of us get paid for free. That’s not fair like people can choose if they want to take the opportunity or if it is very much an amateur thing where they just love doing it and they just want to perform, but not everyone is in that position, so it is about setting your own boundaries and unfortunately we’re not going to change the whole music scene you know there are going to be venues that still want artists to play for free and it’s just about making personal choice, it’s about where you fit into the music scene. You know I stopped doing open mics and I stopped doing free gigs because that’s just not right for me anymore, unless it’s like a really good gig which is going to get me like you said where I want to go. Like you wouldn’t turn around to BBC Introducing and say well you’re not paying me for this session so I’m not going to come in and do a live session for you on the radio. It just depends on the context.
Ella:
Yeah, deffo. I hear what you’re saying as well about personal choices and I think like people can like set a precedent and I think it’s a good thing to do if you’re capable of doing it of turning down gigs that aren’t ethical, that aren’t paying you enough, but realistically like it’s on organisers not on musicians to like de-platform themselves. And like you were saying, realistically event’s organisers and stuff, if they’re operating as a business and they’re taking financial reward for the things they’re putting on they should not be not paying some people and they should be making sure the events they’re putting on are financially viable and they can pay everyone who because they’re the person organising it, they’re the person organising the parameters the boundaries of their events, and the musician doesn’t have weight in that equation because we’re so used to that thing of playing for exposure across all disciplines and like very much you know, someone at the bar, you can’t offer someone bar work as experience or for exposure, like you know show off your cocktail skills! You know no one in their right mind would do that because it’s illegal but for some reason it’s not illegal when it comes to creatives because it’s like I’m giving you this chance to express yourself and push boundaries and you know it’s going to be great but that’s not right! Not only are musicians not being paid but if you’re going to the venue and you’re travelling to venue you’re, you’ve got practice before the venue you’re losing money by doing that gig, it’s not only not profitable but on a loss.
Teah:
It is really about providing people with skills as well. Like it’s, this is why because I wanted to speak to the promoter on the phone because I’m like a business mentor trying to support young people aged 18-30 to start their businesses and I just wanted to speak to him and say you know if this was a business I was setting up I would be telling you all of these different things and I just want, I feel like having started this job and being a promoter and just being a musician I’ve learned so many things about how to market myself and how to budget what my projects are and all these things. So I think it’s about like people in the music industry realising that they are essentially entrepreneurs and businesses and so many of those business skills they need because I think so much of like grassroots music and stuff scomes from I love this and I want to do it so I’m going to like learn on the job, but there are then actually gaps in people’s knowledge about how they approach things. And I think if we give people those skills on both sides, on every step of the ladder, if they’re performers or if they are event’s organisers or even the venue owners just to make sure that those principles are there, that will result in more fairly distributed finances across those people involved and also give musicians and performers you know the tools to talk about it with the venue and actually be able to negotiate and understand that what they’re asking for isn’t too much. You know I know that you’re going to be making this much on the bar because there’s 150 people coming, so I think 25 of that is proportional to what I’m you know what I’m doing. And I think being able to have the language to do that and to talk about it.
Ella:
You’re so right often people running events or promoters on a grassroots level have no like training in business they get into it because they’re passionate about music and live music and I think sometimes are musicians themselves and are putting on events to platform themselves and their peers. So I think having access to skill sharing, but also it’s that thing of offering critique as feedback because it’s like while you are putting on an interesting event it’s not really a viable event until you can pay the people who are performing and letting people know that there are certain things that they should be doing and treating this as a business exchange not just as sort of something which is fun and exciting and a party and while it can be all of those things do you need to take into account that there is a financial exchange happening and you do need to pay for someone’s labour and someone’s time and all of these different things. It’s not just a fun thing for a musician to do especially a career musician.
Eve:
I think it’s a tricky one because a lot of people talk about like making it in the industry and how being signed is kind of like this relief in that you’ve got financial stability finally and if you end up as a huge artist like selling out arenas and stuff of course you’re being paid more than the bar staff, so why doesn’t that start at a grassroots level? It feels like you have to climb this huge ladder to get anywhere near the pay that you should be having and it just shouldn’t be the case because like it’s got nothing to do with, I don’t know it’s pure chance if you like “make it”. I’m doing inverted commas here for the listeners about like “making it” and I think yeah that’s not musicians main goal like for a lot of people it isn’t about like selling out arenas and stuff like obviously famous musicians get paid loads but why is it like the complete opposite on a grassroots level is what I’m trying to say but I think it’s just interesting.
Teah:
I think, I think it comes from, it comes from many angles and a lot of what we’ve said spoke about promoters and the musicians but I do think we need to think about it from the perspective of the venues because like you say Eve like they’re emerging from a pandemic and they’ve got to make money. As much as it’s about them being fair and supportive to the artists that they’re inviting to perform, as well though it is about the members of the public giving value to live music and not just expecting that they can rock up and watch something for free, even though it is really important that there are those spaces and it is a really fun part of a scene that you can just wander into a venue but sometimes you know if you’re presenting an event where you’ve created a line-up of really talented musicians, it’s about setting a precedent with your audience that this is the price of two drinks, because sometimes it’s not about not being able to afford it, it’s about a willingness to pay that for that particular thing you know? If they, they might buy a cocktail for £8 but they won’t pay £8 for a ticket to see three bands. It’s about helping your customers realise what they’re paying for you know and venues talking about that to support their artists, encouraging each other to say this is worth this money, this is what you get for all of this, for this same amount of money.
Ella:
100% and I feel like things like concession tickets then area a really important part of that system because it means like you were saying having free music and having things which are financially accessible are really important, but you can do that in ways which don’t completely undervalue the musicians or the event or all the people working there because you can always have those sort of free or reduced price tickets for people. Like I know art galleries have that, you know for me when I was growing up.
Teah:
Sometimes you know it is important is you are doing an event which you know is supporting an independent venue which does platform artists and create safe spaces and promote new work like that is also important. Those venues are the spaces where we get to do that, so it is important that we support them as well, but that doesn’t necessarily have to come at the cost of the artists. You know there could be any number of ways that they make that money and I think personally a really big one is just making sure that people are buying tickets and that it’s a more normal thing to understand that £7 for three bands is not expensive because I feel like in Sheffield it is. And I know if I saw something when I was a student that was £8 I would have been like eehhh but I’m just not giving weight to it because I know I could walk into somewhere and buy myself food for that price and I just wasn’t, even as a musician, I was forgetting to give it that weight. So I think it is just setting that precedent and making sure that it’s more normalised I guess.
Ella:
You’re so right, it’s like there are sometimes some situations where you are going to be paid less or you don’t get paid loads because you’re at a small venue who don’t have a lot of funding and this sort of thing but it definitely shouldn’t be the standard do you know what I mean that you’re not getting paid or you’re getting paid a small amount. And it’s interesting what you’re saying because I think in Liverpool it’s similar like in terms of the pay but most gigs are ticketed. But interesting how it seems to work in Liverpool from my perspective is artists have to sell the tickets, so you have to do the graft to get the pay, and you only get paid for the amount of tickets that you’ve sold or the amount of people who’ve come into the venue. So I understand it to a level of like maybe if you have a headliner they’ll get more because they bring 80% of the audience. But at the same time, if you’re a musician whose just starting out, you could potentially get no money because you’ve only sold two tickets because you’re a new musician which isn’t like correct like that’s not how that should work because that musician has still spent their time, labour, like all of those things have gone into the event.
Eve:
Well it’s in the name, promoter. Like, that’s your job (laughing).
Ella:
Exactly! Like it’s really interesting that like promotional role is sort of forced onto the musician that like well if you want to get paid, then you need to do the work to get people in. Clearly like across the board whether the tickets are being sold or not, the onus is still on the musician you know it’s like well I’m giving you this opportunity. It’s really strange.
Teah:
But also it goes back to that thing I was saying about skills is like it’s so hard! Like marketing a gig is so difficult. Like even if you’ve already got a bit of a following or some experience putting on events. It’s not easy once you’ve asked all your mates, and if you asked them to come to the one two weeks ago it’s like how do you get other people to come? And I’m sorry but not everyone has the skills or the knowledge to do that and we all know that we can learn a lot of that, and you’ve built up such a great following on your page, but that didn’t happen overnight. You know that takes years of learning and building up so you can’t just turn around and bring fifty people to a gig just out of the blue, it’s really difficult. So that’s another reason why I really want to support musicians with skills to promote themselves and understand how to build a bit of an online community and encouraging people to come out of their homes and come to an event, and especially now we have to remember that it’s still a hard sell for people because it’s still not accessible to people, it’s quite tough.
Ella:
Yeah, even if you do have an audience and you have people who are interested in your events and stuff like that, getting people to pay for a ticket and getting people to take that leap to go to the event especially like you said coming out of a pandemic. People are either really busy if people are comfortable going out, those people probably already have plans of what they want to do, or if someone is feeling less comfortable it’s going to be difficult for that person to commit to going to those things and there are so much at the moment in terms of events in encouraging people to come and buy tickets and it’s a whole ball game and for us like we don’t really have any events experience and any of the marketing or promotional experience we have is all like you know tried and tested having a go and eventually seeing what sticks and what works, so having like resources available in terms of like finance and marketing and promotion and all of these sort of things is like something which is integral for people on all levels including promoters and venues because venues and promoters themselves may not have the skill set to promote things correctly and especially at a grassroots level I think it is important to note that people are doing it for the passion of it and that often doesn’t translate into things being equitable or financially viable.
Teah:
Yeah well this is one other thing which has kind of emerged for me from the past year or so is understanding how I can get myself some financial compensation for what I’ve done, and actually having been commissioned, this arts council money to put on some events over the past year. For that money to include money for me I was like, I was like that’s never happened before. I remember a couple of years ago I got budgeted £300 which at the time sounded like a lot of money to me to put on this evening of money, and at no point did I think oh I’ll have £50 of that or I’ll have X amount of that. I literally budgeted everything to paying other artists and getting a sound system, it didn’t even occur to me that I could pay myself £10 an hour for this work, and for these past couple of events it has been made clear to me that some of that money is for my time, and I would really encourage anyone who is a musician or a promoter or anything to be looking at the funding that is available. I’m obviously in like Yorkshire area and there’s a lot over here at the moment, but Arts Council for example is national, and that’s available to individuals and organisations and it’s a skill to complete a successful funding application and it does take quite a lot of time. But actually it is really worth exploring because it’s not just about financial support it’s about financial support, and there are so many organisations out there who are offering it especially in the North so I think it’s really worth reaching out and finding different ways that you can compensate yourself even if it’s just with help like I got help like to buy a microphone because I also want to start a podcast for Boxie, and I’ve got a microphone now which I wouldn’t have been able to afford out of my own finances and just little things like that. It might not be wages for a month it might just be support to buy something that you need, but it is possible and you know if you put the time into understanding what you need to succeed with that it’s really worth doing.
Eve:
Absolutely, I think that’s a really great place to end there I think with a word of advice for listeners and some really really sort of encouraging thoughts there. It’s been really lovely having you on Teah, thank you very much for joining and for sharing because it’s so interesting to hear a perspective like yours so thank you!
Our song of the week will be of course by our lovely guest Teah Lewis. Let’s take it away with Lighthouse Keeper.
Teah Lewis – Lighthouse Keeper
We are Ella and Eve from Where are the Girlbands working in collaboration with Comics Youth to bring you interviews with local organisations and individuals who create safe spaces. You can find us on Instagram as @wherearethegirlbands where we celebrate women in music and discuss how to make local music scenes more accessible for everyone through reviews, video series, interviews and events! You can find more about Comics Youth on Instagram at @comicsyouth or via the website comicsyouth.co.uk. Comics Youth is ayouth led organisation that aims to empower youth across the Liverpool City Region to flourish from the margins of society, creating safe spaces where young people can harness their own narratives and find confidence within a creative community. Comics Youth provide a range of creative services designed to support and amplify the often diminished voices of young people, from zine creation to youth led publishing hubs and projects such as this podcast which highlights the voices of those working within our community to create safe spaces! Thanks for listening.